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David and SJ: what does the dream look like? Whose is it involved? Sometimes you just need to have a go and practice it.

And it doesn't matter if the first one doesn't come off

buying a car is a thousand logical reasons looking for one emotional reason.

Rob: Welcome to Superpowered, the unique stories of modern leaders. I'm Rob D. Willis, a storytelling consultant and speaker. And each week I sit down with leaders from inside and outside the business world to hear those unexpected stories and insights which can transform the way that you approach work and life.

Today, I'm talking to David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie, founders of the StorySpotters, a UK based leadership communication consultancy. They've just released a book called the DNA of Engagement. We're going to be going into what that's all about. And how to save your great ideas from dying a lonely death in the communication jungle.

If you haven't done so yet, please make sure to subscribe wherever you [00:01:00] listen to podcasts and get ready for this conversation with David and Sarah Jane

David and Sarah Jane, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here.

David and SJ: Thank you, Rob. It's really

lovely to be here. And hello, Berlin.

Rob: I'm actually really excited. This is my first ever double interview. Yeah, getting two people in the room with me or not in the room, the virtual room with me. And also you're both fellow storytelling experts and enthusiasts. But for the listeners who don't know your work could you just tell us a little bit about yourselves, what you do and story spotters.

David and SJ: Well, as we say, we call the story Spotters and for reasons that, you know, there are lots of storytellers out there, but we help people to spot their stories. And the reason we do that is because there are so many great ideas that go out into the world and so many ideas that, that either take too long to get off the ground to the just.

fizzle and and so what we say we do is we help people save their great ideas from dying a lonely death in the [00:02:00] communications jungle by using story based techniques. So that's what we do. That's what the story spotters do. And it's, yeah, we kind of look at it, we look at life in a way, through story, certainly communication.

So there's the stories that you tell, obviously. There's the, the stories that you listen for. is you can't have a great conversation or a meaningful conversation without really hearing other people's stories and understanding and pinpointing them, being curious about them. There's, there's, there's my favorite one, which is the stories that you tell yourself.

I mean, we're doing it all the time. And whether they're useful. or not so useful and how you quell those. And then there are the stories that you tell by your behavior. And so just literally how you show up , in whatever situation you're in, whether it's a one to one on stage , or in an interview or whatever, or on this thing or on the exactly.

Yes. So yeah. What [00:03:00] people will perceive from the way that you physically are. and each one tells a story because we, we have to create stories in our heads to be able to understand what we're seeing.

Rob: this is always something I've thought as well, because the word truth or fact is very loaded. We always think, Oh, I just need the facts, I just need to see the truth. But there is information, but it's way too complex to digest everything. So we will inevitably create stories out of

it.

David and SJ: Story is out there, whether we like it or not, I mean, we're always sort of analyzing the world and sort of thinking, what does this mean to me? So we, as Sarah Jane says, I mean, we are creating that story for ourselves. The trouble is that people try to out story somebody's story with more facts and you can't, you're just going to create a better story than the one or more vivid story than the one that they're telling themselves at the moment.

Right.

And we, we always match it as well with the stories that we've already got in our heads. So we [00:04:00] think, Oh, that's a bit like that. And it not be a bit like that. It may be something very different. But, but to us at that time, it, it feels that it's a bit like that thing. I, that happened to me the other day.

So, you know, there's so many there. Oh my gosh, there's so many alleyways that we can go along. So the clarity of it is

incredibly important. Now.

Rob: you've just released this book, The Pink Panther, the DNA of engagement, which I have read. I love it. But can we just start with giving just a quick, very brief overview of what dreams, nightmares, and actions mean in practice?

David and SJ: We were doing this piece of work with Aviva, the UK insurer about how they got the business to lean into the strategic changes that Amanda Blanc, the CEO wanted to happen.

And when we were creating this piece of work, a communications piece of work for the leadership. Sarah Jane one day. to us, said to me, it's like, [00:05:00] it's like, it's, it's, we have this DNA that runs through our lives, which is the dreams. There is the, well, for example, this has happened this morning. I mean, my dream is at 10 o'clock UK time.

I was going to get nice and easily onto, onto Squadcast and have a chat with Rob and it was going to be absolutely lovely. Dream. Perfect. That's the ideal world with no problems in whatsoever. Of course there are problems. The problem was. Squadcast doesn't really like Safari very much and I needed to update Chrome.

And so I sort of had to sort of the nightmare was actually figuring that out. And then the actions, the A of the DNA was actually the actions I took to get on there and test it and everything and get online by 10 o'clock. So what we discovered was that a really good way to communicate with people was, was to take this, Thing that is baked into us this DNA of life as Sarah Jane has called it Which is the thing that how we understand and problem solve and plan our lives It runs [00:06:00] absolutely through us and use that as a communications tool by making sure that the very first thing that comes out When you are trying to persuade and influence people and build that engagement and you know build the trust Is first connect to their dreams say that you've understood listen I get what it is you're trying to do here and what that's going to mean to you in the future And then that very loaded and complicated word but which breaks into act two, which is the nightmare But have you considered that this might get in the way of that?

And then you go into the action So let's talk about what it is we need to do together in order to overcome those nightmares and get to the dream so it's a it's really based on I listened to a wonderful interview with Barack Obama on a podcast called pod save America where he was talking to John Favreau is One of his speechwriters who asked Obama, how would you talk about the need to defend democracy in the moment.

He said, Well, let's start there. I'd earned the permission by talking about the peak the things that [00:07:00] people want to be talking about at the moment. So, so the DNA is really a structure. Good. Of gaining the permission to talk about what it is you're interested in by connecting to what the other person is interested in.

Rob: Yeah. Because if you're starting where you want to, then those people won't feel heard. They won't open up to your story.

David and SJ: Well, they might, they might, but it depends whether they share, that they share those thoughts. And, and so, yeah, so we'll probably come on to this, but know your audience is one of the most

important. Yes, absolutely.

Rob: I've, I've always found this though, that. When people don't feel heard and validated and understood, they get very frustrated. And the more you try and push your story or your idea onto them, the more they almost seem to think you haven't understood me yet and keep trying to explain it to you. It's something I always feel with my with my family.

So, so, you know, you, you kind of, let's say you're having a stressful moment [00:08:00] and you afterwards you think, Oh, if only I'd said that they would have seen what I meant. And then there are moments where you prepared what you were going to say, and you thought it was perfect. I'm going to say it. It's going to be like a telenovela where the vicar walks in and everyone's like, and suddenly they agree with me.

And then you say it and it's like, they didn't notice. Yeah. They just keep saying their thing.

David and SJ: Yeah. I know

Rob: that's why I always think it's so important to start where people are. As you say, understand their dreams, their nightmares. And then you can begin to define what actions. It's a bit like Grow, I suppose. If you're familiar, you know.

David and SJ: it's very light grow, very light grow. Yeah, short form of that. I mean, it's a, it's interesting. It's a, it's both the short form of grow and an even shorter form of the, of the hero's journey really in storytelling terms. So yes, it's basically we've, we've what It's a homeopathic

version of both of those things.

Rob: about it is that the hero's journey [00:09:00] was not designed to write stories. It was designed to analyze stories. Much of what I did as an English literature student was reading and understanding. That doesn't really help you create a story. It really needs to be as simple as possible. And this is a great way to encode life.

It's great for communication. I think it's great for decision making as well. But maybe, have you got maybe like a little example of a client you helped, a challenge that they were having and how this framework helped them through it.

David and SJ: Oh, definitely. I mean, well, I mean, the obvious one is, is where this started. We can name that name Aviva because it was you know, that, that, the, feedback internally there about just the way that people are engaging in different teams as well, not just the whole organization, but different teams, how they, their, their net promoter scores and their engagement scores have gone up hugely by using this internally has been a big thing.

Without naming names, there was another organization actually, actually was in, in, in Germany. Funnily enough, I went to see the chief executive [00:10:00] out there of this organization then it was their European team and they were working on, they wanted to, to, to work on the purpose of the organization and what the next six, no, the next 12 months look like really.

And. They'd spent a long, long time actually trying to figure out what this looked like. And the problem was, as we say in the book, no one was on the same page. Everyone had a different interpretation of what what the future looked like and what could get in the way of that. So, so I, I spent about two days, one day with the, with the chief executive and one day with the management team.

working on a DNA structure really and getting them to tell stories. I mean, what do each of them, each of those 12 people around that table at the, at the Exco, what does the dream look like? Whose is it involved? Where's it going to happen? What are they going to be saying, thinking, feeling all of those things.

And then having established, okay, this is what we're going for, right? Let's think about what the nightmares are that could get in the way of that being a reality. And then each of the [00:11:00] man, each of the leadership take team coming up with the individual actions that they needed to take in order to overcome the nightmares and achieve that dream.

And it went down, it went down very well. And it's sort of, it comes back to your point of planning really, Rob, and the, the, the strategic opportunities within the DNA as well. But. Well, yes, I mean, I think that in, in coaching, I do quite a bit of coaching and, and I, I think when, particularly for instance, when people, people are wanting to go they're seeking to go for a higher position.

They want a position on the board, for instance, or whatever. And, It's really helping them. To understand

what they have to offer and how that would marry with the organization that they're , going to, , and it's a kind of leadership model really in terms of the way in which you, in the way in which you can, you can really help people understand how you are going to be when you are around [00:12:00] the board table, that you are going to be helpful.

You're going to be, you're going to be discussing in this way, which is, which is. Collaborative. It's a wonderful collaboration tool, I think, because you're setting out the dream, you're understanding what the problem is, and then you're beginning to talk about what actions could be taken. And it's an, it's open to be able to, to just, you know, for discussion.

Rob: I have a similar question for both of you actually. I'll start with you first, Sarah Jane. Just going to those people who want to get a promotion, seat on the board, maybe become an executive, and DNA helps them. In your experience coaching, what do you think has What mode of thinking have they had up until that point?

And why don't you think that works?

David and SJ: Well, I think a lot of it, a lot of it is because people think that, because they're, they think they have to do process, basically. They [00:13:00] have a job, which is essentially about getting things done. And it's not about inspiration or leading. I think that's the, that's the big difference.

It's coming up with the ideas. It's coming up with the, the, the strategies. It's coming up with the, just the thoughts around how it could be better, how it could be different. And I think there's a, there's a nudge people need into that. Because this is about exposing, this is about really putting you on the table, if you see what I mean.

And what really are your thoughts? How have you really thought about this? What would be your dream? How does that relate to the dream around in the group that you're addressing? How does that relate to the dream for the organisation? It's much bigger in thought.

Rob: It's more kind of perspective that people have to come zooming out seeing the bigger picture,

David and SJ: Lots of people I think don't, [00:14:00] they, they haven't quite got there yet, they need, in order to be promoted or grab these big jobs, you really have to understand.

kind of what your capacity is and how, how you need to lead and care.

I think that's a, that's a very good point. Huge

input, hugely important.

Rob: I think it's a challenge for, for lots of people to begin to take that approach when they make that transition to executive where you're not really doing or strategizing, you're talking in this big, what you might say on the outside looks kind of airy fairy way. It's like, it, it just seems a very, very far back perspective.

Don't have to go too deep into this, Sarah Jane, but if you've got an example, maybe, of when it clicked for someone, was it a quick process, or did there, were there challenges, were there roadblocks in being able to see the world in this, in maybe clearer way, we could say.

David and SJ: I'm thinking about somebody [00:15:00] who, I was coaching for a ball position but she didn't get the job and I realized after that, that she needed to go through that one chance. In order to practice it and fit, she felt good about what she'd done, but then what she was able to come back and say, I knew that this is what I didn't do. She was able to see it. She was able to see the missing bit of the jigsaw puzzle. that she had done in terms of her confidence, basically, that was what it was.

She is now, you know, sort of some months later doing the job that she wants to do in a different organization. So, I mean, it's like that, and that was the, it was the last bit of the jigsaw puzzle that had to fit in. Sometimes you just need to have a go and practice it.

And it doesn't matter if the first one doesn't come off because there's a reason for that. You've learned so much

by by doing that. It's such a personal and quite a big thing to do, actually go up for

these

interviews.

Rob: I mean, just put it in the DNA [00:16:00] framework. It seems like the dream was to take this leap and the nightmare was to kind of get stuck. And that person had to face. this nightmare in order to realize what are the actions I need to take

David and SJ: Yeah,

Rob: make that that

transition to continue this back to David and the Germans being based in Germany.

I always want to hear more about this. I'm imagine that they'd already been doing all this work to define their strategy and I'm just going to throw a guess out there. Maybe they were getting stuck in a lot of process. So what was their transition like to getting this clarity.

David and SJ: Well, I was very lucky in that the CEO based in Munich said to me, I'm a very un German German. having said that, I don't think I've Ever met a German German. I think Germans always really, really make me laugh. And when you get them to see that there is, you know, Yes, you keep your process.

Absolutely. But you need to keep the logic and all of that stuff really important. But let's inject some of the emotion in there as well. That was, that was really important. And [00:17:00] I, it's interesting, Rob, one of the, one of my favorite quotes, which is maybe apocryphal, but it's, it's attributed to Anurag Mehrotra when he was the, the president at Ford India, he said that buying a car is a thousand logical reasons looking for one emotional reason.

And. That's true, whether it's buying a car, buying a house, choosing a partner, that you can always backfill the logic in the process and the emotion and everything behind it. But there's just a gut feeling that we, that we get, that makes us, we have hope. We, we have that feeling of hope that the future can be better.

And when they, Yeah, the same. When, when I, when I told the, the chief exec what we were going to do, he said, David, I trust you. I would hug a tree if you asked me to. He said, if it doesn't work, I won't hug a second tree. Thankfully it worked. So it was, so actually going through that process, and you could see it in the room, and it's not, it, this isn't to, to denigrate the logic and the process, and those are [00:18:00] really, really important.

But as Otra says, I mean, start with the emotion. Have a whacking great lump of pastrami of logic in the middle and then end it with emotion as well. So I mean, it's, those are the, you know, the very fine Germanic bread that that's around It's just, people actually do buy into it when they see it and when they

experience it in particular.

Rob: Yeah. I can, I can imagine. My, my favorite quote actually about storytelling is the Richard Maxwell and is it Bob Dickman? Stories are data wrapped in context and delivered with meaning. It, it just, it, it encapsulates it so, well, stories are not anti fact in any

way. They're a

way of presenting it.

David and SJ: And they're not the be all and end all either, are they? It's an interesting world we live in at the moment, and I think those two the story and data, depending which camp you're in, you sort of think, oh, data is the answer to everything, or story is the answer to everything.

No, it isn't. It's a combination of those two, and how you actually sort of combine them. [00:19:00] To make, to make this work, to make the communication really in heads, hearts, and indeed hands. So people do something differently, because that's the ultimate metric of a good story. Do people

do something differently?

Rob: This actually leads me to a question which I was going to ask later, but it kind of fits here. Are there moments where you feel story, a story driven approach is not right? What? What? Yeah.

David and SJ: an interesting question.

Rob: Mm hmm.

David and SJ: say no, I agree with you. I was, I've just been, I'm just going through the Rolodex in my head, because I think communication that you want to hit, that, that you You want it to hit the target well, and that means so that you're not destroying the target, you're just, you're, you're, you're kind of allowing them to absorb it. I think needs some sort of story attached. It's, [00:20:00] it's, well, actually there's an interesting thing there, isn't it? I mean, I, I, I completely agree with Sarah Jane. I mean, I, I think story is important, but actually if we, if we break, if we, we change that between narrative structure and story, and the DNA is really not really a storytelling device.

I mean, we talk about how you use story. The DNA is, is the structure to keep control of the conversation, to keep control of the, the direction of travel, of understanding around that SIT stories. I think I would, I think I would send it comes back to Sarah Jane's point about understanding your audience, a very technical audience, people who are going for funding, that sort of thing, you better believe it that those audience want big numbers, they want to understand the numbers, they still To go back to Marta, they still need to feel something as well.

You just wouldn't necessarily labor on the story so much. You, you would have the strong DNA structure. This is what the dream is. People say they, they, there is enough of a a story structure [00:21:00] in there. Yes, yes. For people to be able to go, oh, I get this. It's the story of the numbers, isn't it? Well, indeed and indeed and numbers themselves can be very emotional

as

well.

Rob: Now the George Saunders defined story as a collection of elements that react against one another. When you put a series of objects, next one, he gave a a example, I believe of imagine you put a machete, a gun and a big knife and a ceramic duck on a table. If all of the weapons were pointing at the duck, you'd kind of think the duck was in trouble, even though there is no story there really, but we've created it just because of the elements and how we're going to look at them.

But for the, I'm kind of preaching to the converted. I'm going to be your easiest audience with this stuff. I imagine you've come across Those people who say the numbers who should speak the numbers speak for themselves like that's it I don't need to do any more How [00:22:00] do you show them the value? Is this something you've had to to do to kind of convert people essentially?

David and SJ: very often. Often. And actually, funnily enough, Rob, I mean, and it's in the book, we actually, there's a slide that we, it's winning the intellectual argument, really, about why it's necessary early on, and there's a, there's a, there's a picture in the book, which of a little chap, little cartoon who looks remarkably like me, peeking out from behind some curtains, and all it says next to it is, I don't know if you noticed, but Jack's car was parked outside Diane's house last night.

Oh, okay. And we always say to people, right, look at this, what's going on? And people start giggling and they sort of say, Oh, well, yeah, they're obviously happy there. Or Jack's parking space was taken. We say, this is interesting. Back to your point that you just made exactly then, Rob. There is no story there.

There is a bunch of facts, which everyone has, has, has, Done that amazing human skill of turning into something of meaning in their heads. And what we always say to people is that, [00:23:00] you know, you can, you take note of what has just happened in this room there.

You talk about your numbers, you talk about your data, you talk about your facts, which are all very important, but you don't put them into that context of a story.

then people will be creating a story. It just won't necessarily be the story you want them to be creating. So it, that, that, that penny drop moment very early on in one of our sessions is it, it's, we don't get too many arguments after that. And, and, and, you know, we are related to the numbers that we're about.

So, you know, what is our relation to that? Where's the story behind that? Because numbers on their own. Really, I mean, they might look impressive, but unless there's people behind them who can kind of make sure that those numbers stay those numbers, you know, and what's the story behind that? I think it's incredibly important.

It's an interesting one, actually. I mean, sorry, I jumped in there. But [00:24:00] you probably know that we're doing some pro bono work with some NGOs in Africa at the moment. And of course, they're very data driven in terms of the impact That their work is having. But one of the things we will always say is that there's only two reasons to use data, really.

One of it is it, does it enhance your message? The other one, is it telling a story? And so, you know, in pure story structure, any data is, this is what was happening. This is what is happening now. This is what the future will look like as a result of that or could look like. So it is real, real beginning, middle and end structure.

And that's a very easy and good way to, to make. To use data intentionally and the other way is to enhance your message, which I think to Sarah Jane's point is is I had an extraordinary example of this the other day with a team who'd, who'd, who'd created a, a, a sort of a, a, a bot to, they were, they were very worried about greenwashing in their organization and, a sort of genius there had created this bot which, [00:25:00] which scanned, Just millions, hundreds of millions of words across their sort of third party suppliers websites, just looking for signs of greenwashing and stuff like that, because it was very important to the board.

And he could have said those numbers, but he said, and he did say the number, but very quickly afterwards, he said, and he turned to the, to the chair and he said, he said, That's the number. What I want you to imagine is what that means is if I gave you those words on Monday morning and you spent eight hours a day reading them, you wouldn't finish for the next six years.

And so that became a very tangible, Oh, okay. So you've done something that does something in half an hour that would take one person six years of their working life now. And there's more words being created every day. So, so it's the enhancement, but also the storytelling of

numbers.

Rob: it is amazing how it can bring numbers, dry facts to life. It can make them more meaningful. I just want to take a slight turn here but it is related. I promise. [00:26:00] Cause

David and SJ: like, We like,

Rob: I want to go back to your origin stories. You are, you're both former actors.

Is that, is that

correct?

David and SJ: are, bank managers still

don't

Rob: so you literally had to bring stories to life. Could you tell me a little bit about how this changed your approach to, to communication now you're working in business? Is there any particular exercise or process or something which stuck in your mind that you found has been extremely relevant today?

David and SJ: I've been thinking about this and I think that for me, It's always about the breath

and I think you know, there is actually I Very few things that are more terrifying I think than standing in the wings on the first night Really? I mean it's a and you're waiting to go on for your first entrance because you know, you know The press press night, you know, the press are out there and , the only way that you can control that because of the [00:27:00] nerves and the excitement and all that kind of thing is understanding how to breathe your way through it. And so there's that, there's that, but there's also, you're never going to hit the back of a hall. Unless you actually are using your breath properly. Now I know that most people now have microphones and, and stuff like that, but occasionally you're going to have to really command a big room, for instance, without a mic, and sometimes it's nicer if you can, because it's more personal.

And I mean, we were doing something the other day, weren't we in the, and the, the, the, the guy who was in charge of it, who was in charge of the function that we were dealing with refused to use a mic. and it was brilliant because we weren't using them. And I thought, good for you, well done.

And he really upped his game in terms of his, his

projection. And I, he really, really did. And it makes so much difference. So if you can get your, if you can get your breath, right. And you can use your, [00:28:00] your, the, the whole of the structure of your, of your voice then I think that it makes an enormous amount of difference.

So that, that would be the thing, one of the things, I mean, it's an, it's a sort of unusual thing probably to talk about, but I'm, I think it's incredibly important,

yeah, no, I mean, I think mine is more about mindset as much as anything, Rob. And it's interesting, I mean, I know that when I was acting, the worst nights, and they often did happen on first nights, where you really find you're under pressure, and you know the newspapers are out there and they're going to write something about you in the press the following morning.

And what it tends to do is it deflects your attention from where it should be onto something erroneous, And you're standing there on stage thinking I've got to impress these critics. I've got to impress these critics. It's death trying to impress people like that. I mean, you absolutely, your sole job as an actress to connect with your,

your scene [00:29:00] partner and to change what they're believing, thinking, feeling, doing.

I mean, that's what you are doing. The result of what the audience sees is is, you know, let them deal with that. You have no control over that. What I can control is what my moment here. And in terms of what that means for business people, whether it's in a presentation or any communication, really, I think when the When the stakes are very high people go in there with a mindset of I need to impress And these are critics who are sitting there who are going to judge me And if you can change that mindset to no, they're not they are a scene partner who you are interacting with Even if it's a presentation you just only happen to be the only one talking They are a scene partner and my pure job here is to Understand where they are now and lead them on a journey to where they are thinking, feeling and doing something differently by the end of it.

So, so I think that that shift away from thinking that you are being judged by your in inverted commas audience, whether [00:30:00] it's a VC investor or whether it's a, you know, your view and all hands, you know, town hall online. You're not trying to impress people. You're not trying to get their, they are your scene partner.

You're trying to change this sort of, it's the method school of corporate comms, you're having a conversation, even though they might not be saying anything, you're still kind of

having a conversation.

Rob: So, I mean, you two now are scene partners in your business. And I'm just wonder I'm just wondering, does that Have they been any late? interesting breakthroughs or moments because of that. Because of the fact you were two different perspectives on the same exercise.

David and SJ: Almost on a daily basis in amongst the arguments. It's

I know you're going to say something about this, but no, you are, but actually this is a very good example. This is a very good example of what I'm about to say. What's happening here. I tend to be very, very direct and sort of gung ho and charging.

I'll say, right, we're going to be doing this [00:31:00] and charging off and, and getting stuff going. And so this is the road we're going down. And then Sarah Jane goes. I'm not sure we're on the right road, actually, and I sort of scream and kick and growl and then eventually come back and say, yeah, you were right, actually.

But so, so I think that's, let's take some time. Let's just think about this. That's very much our dynamic. Yes. It seems to have worked for 30 odd years. Yes, it has. It has.

Rob: But it's good. It's good. I think to have different, different approaches, complementing each other,

I always ask guests on this show, if they're to write a business book, what would they call it? But you just did write a business book.

So maybe just maybe just one little closing thought in this section about what made you think this was the right time to share this methodology with, with the world?

David and SJ: Oh, well, that was three things coming together, really. I mean, well, actually, when we did it, we did it when we, when [00:32:00] we did it for Aviva, it, it, it just made so much sense. And, and people were really getting it. And it was really, I think, answering, answering a question that we've often asked ourselves, which is how do we, how do we get this message over?

As clearly as possible that people can really understand it in a way that's easily accessible.

Because so many times, I mean, we've both tried many different kind of ways of, of, of doing this and kind of, and taking into, into consideration the individual or the organization that we're working with.

And it's not that we've not had success, but there is, there's been something missing. It hasn't quite gelled. This way, it hasn't taken off in this way. And so this way of [00:33:00] explaining what we mean in terms of, in terms of encouraging engagement and, and collaboration, which is what this, which is what this is all about exactly.

Is, is it's, it just, and in actual appeared really, I, no, it did appear and then I, then I, I mean, and, and, and on the basis on the back of that rather, That this piece of work happened that thought, okay, this, this feels like what we mean. I then had a conversation with a woman called Debbie Jenkins, who's a book coach.

She has a, has a imprint called intellectual perspective press, which is who we're published through. And it was that conversation around that where she said, he said, she said, don't think about intellectual property. Think about your intellectual perspective because she said, you know, you've got lots of experience and you bring many ideas to the table, which you've put together.

It's your intellectual perspective on what good could look like and and it was it was that shift in perspective on my part thinking Oh, yeah, that's right. And and so and so this has sort of become [00:34:00] It well, it's interesting the first half of it is absolutely what we did with on that avita program the second half Dips into a lot more of the other stuff that we have done for all of our working lives, which is Okay, here's the narrative structure of the dna right Now how do you tell the stories around that?

How do you get the stories out of others? How do you put it into practice? And yeah, so it felt like the right

time to do it.

Rob: Yeah, no, it really came together. I've loved reading it. I'm gonna put a link so Mr. Bezos can get even richer from

David and SJ: we're good at doing that for

Rob: in the show. And our conversations always lead to more books being pulled, but there you go. I've just gotta do a couple of rapid fire questions. I'll do one for each of you. Before I want to move on to the the listener challenge let's start with, with Sarah Jane, have you got.

a non business book, which is actually about great storytelling, which actually gives you a lot of insight into what you do.

David and SJ: all [00:35:00] my life, I have been a great fan of myths and legends.

I also, as a considerable years ago studied astrology. So maybe I shouldn't be bringing this up. But, but that's because of the fact that the, the, the myths around all that I find fascinating.

And there's, you know, through these, there's, Every single emotion, situation, I mean it's all kind of highlighted because it's all very grand and, and, and, and, Archetypal. Yes, archetypal, exactly, good, yes, good word, it is, absolutely. And I think that those, Really, I can often see archetypes in, in, in, in people or in situations because they're, because we do, we do live, we are emotional beings and we're sort of, it's, it's everything that you see has been done before by other people.

You know, every single emotion and we have [00:36:00] emotions about things and, and, and we have reactions to things and we have, we have light bulb moments about things in exactly the same way. So I think that really, my, my kind of love of myths and legends and the understanding of the human condition all those years ago is really, I think probably .

where I have had inspiration from in terms of doing this work. And they're all jolly good stories as well. We just saw Eden on stage, didn't we? Mark Strong and Leslie Manville, which is Robert Ike, wonderful retelling of that, which just brings it smack up to date. And that's a, you know, talk about archetypes.

Yeah, I know. It's exactly the same story, but in, in modern

day.

Rob: I'm a big fan of the the myths, the legends, ancient Greece. There's so much good stuff out there. And I, I also share your, your point about, you know, nothing's really new. It's [00:37:00] particularly awkward when you like teach storytelling and like Aristotle was kind of ahead of us in all of that.

David, your rapid fire question, most underrated quality in a storyteller.

David and SJ: I'm going to say energy, I'm going to say energy and I don't mean waving your arms around and speaking loudly. In fact, this is going to come back to something that we will probably talk in terms of at the end, but it's the energy to connect the desire to connect. Because if you, you know, you tell a story, but you don't look as if you don't want to be anywhere else except right there.

there right now telling that story. We often talk about three elements of, of presence, warmth, and power that we judge people on. Judge is probably a strong word. It's like the presence is, do you look and sound as if you don't want to be anywhere else except right here, right now, having this conversation?

The warmth comes back to that thing. Have, is there a benevolence in you? Have you sort of taken the other person to consideration? And then the power is, is, Your ability to stand [00:38:00] behind what it is you're saying behind your beliefs in the story or the values of the story. And I think a lot of, a lot of people go to that box first and they take the power of, I'm going to tell a great story and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

The presence and the warmth, I think that those are underrated powers that

people should think about more.

Rob: Now we're going to move on to the the listener challenge. And in this section of the podcast, we give listeners a short exercise or ritual that they can try out and apply to their work. Who wants to go first?

David and SJ: Well, I, I have one. Show and tell. Yeah, it's very, it's very simple. And it, going back now to what I was talking about, the breath.

we

Are rushing around so much every day. There's meeting upon meeting and then we're constantly, Oh my God, I've got to go to the next meeting, et cetera, et cetera.

In, out of rooms. You know, into the, all this kind of thing. Oh. Our, our brains can get, I think, pretty much grilled in a way they [00:39:00] get, can, can get so terribly hot around all this. And the thing is we have a body attached, which is sending us signals all the time. And I think we can get real burnout.

We can, we can, we can not be clear in our heads often sometimes when we're in certain meetings, when we're going from one thing to another, so my big, big My, my, my tip here is, you've been in a room and you've had a meeting with people, when you finish that meeting, go somewhere, go, go into, as you're walking down the corridor, go off into a little, I don't know, a little room or somewhere like that, where you can just literally stand still And take a few breaths, even if it's in the lift or whatever, or wherever you are, just breathe.

And when I say breathe, I mean, really do the whole kind of feel your diaphragm expanding. Just Feel your diaber and then just let it out. You [00:40:00] call it the change breath, don't you? I think it's, yes it is, it's exactly, it's a change breath because what you're doing is you're kind of like, you think, okay, I've got all that stuff in that last meeting or that last phone call running around my head.

I need to now be fresh for this next one. I need to actually have I kind of full stop and open a different door for the next meeting I'm going into. And I think that that what it does, it, it's because it physically, what it does, it relaxes

you.

You can breathe out what you've, what you've just been kind of all, all the things that the, the anxieties or the, or the difficulties or the, the, the stress or whatever from the last meeting.

I don't mean that by forget it all, but just, you know, just breathe out that feeling. And then because you need to go into the next meeting clean, it's a refocus. It's a complete refocus. And I think sometimes We, we can't, I, I do often see people, you know, when I'm in people's offices and everything, I often see people sort of rushing into [00:41:00] it, and they, and I often see them kind of, as they are opening the doors, they go, oh, and they walk in, and I'm like, hmm, you need to do that a little bit more, because that's, that's what it is.

It's the, it's the, It's, I can see in that moment they're trying to refocus and actually if you can give yourself, go, I don't know, just sort of stand in a corridor or in the lift or go to the loo, whatever it is, and just three focused

breaths, which actually go down to your diaphragm. You can really feel that and breathe out and just breathe out so that you can calm yourself again.

Rob: That's a that's a fantastic one. I also read recently that a large percentage of people suffer from something called computer apnea, where you kind of forget to breathe while on the computer. And so it's all the more important every now and again to stand up and breathe to re engage your body in that way.

Fantastic. David, I feel like you also have a little ritual or [00:42:00] exercise for people. This

David and SJ: in the moment. And I don't know if you've ever played that game. It's probably showing my age here when you're a kid where you, you know, you'd get here and here's a pretty high tech coaching tool, a piece of string.

And you know, you'd get, a piece of string and you'd attach two empty tin cans or yogurt pots or something. You go, hi, Rob, can you hear me? And you go, My goodness, I can hear you, and it only works. Basically, it's basic figure physics because the string is tight. The sound waves are going down it. The thing I would suggest to people is imagine that that's what your meetings are like your, your number one job from the moment you walk through the door.

The moment you turn on the screen is to think. How can I get that string tight and how can I keep it tight to the very end of this meeting? And that will be in terms of how you design your content. It will be in terms of how you deliver your content physically and vocally. [00:43:00] Anytime that people are switching off and you feel that, you know, it's sagging a bit like that.

What can you do to bring it back to that Titan thing? And that's, it's the mental shift in the, the, the It's the image I would, I would, I would suggest people. In fact, funnily enough, I, a few years ago I was working with a client who was going for a very big piece of work and he told me afterwards, he said, David, I had a, I had a piece of string in my pocket right the way through the, right the way through the interview, just to remind myself, just keep the string tight.

So, so that would be my advice to people is, is that's a ritual you can do. Have the piece of string and think it's your job. If it isn't tight, there's something you're

not doing.

Rob: is a powerful metaphor. We're going to link to little descriptions of those in the show notes. But the last thing is just to ask David, Sarah Jane, where can people go to find out more about you both?

David and SJ: Well, LinkedIn is the obvious one. I mean, I'm barely off the thing. I mean, it's, uh, it's been really useful. I mean, it's, it's great. I mean, I think we, we, we can [00:44:00] fall into the danger of wanting vanity metrics on, on LinkedIn, but I know Rob with, you know, the sort of clients that we're, Both of us are working with and all three of us are working with.

I mean, they're too busy running businesses to be on LinkedIn, but I mean, just reminding people and giving people something valuable that they can use. So, so both of us, yeah, David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie on LinkedIn. And also you'll find us here on Amazon.

Rob: Amazon, the DNA of engagement and I will definitely link to that because it is a great book And it's a really fresh perspective and practical one as well that I think people who aren't already Storytelling nerds like us are gonna get a lot of value out of. David, Sarah Jane. Thank you so much for coming on.

David and SJ: Huge pleasure. Thank you, Rob. Take

care.

Rob: That was David Pullen and Sarah Jane McKechnie, sharing their insights on how to bring stories to life in business. I love how practical the DNA framework is and how easy it is to use while conveying [00:45:00] strategy, leading a conversation, or even just understanding your life. If you found value in the conversation, please take a minute to rate and review the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

It really helps more people find us. And if you know anyone in particular who's working on their communication or leading change in their organization, share this episode with them. Sometimes all it takes is one new perspective like David and Sarah Jane's to spark real progress I'm Rob D Willis and I will see you next week for another episode of Superpowered the unique stories of modern leaders Goodbye