Please note : This transcript is automatically generated and provided for your convenience.

[00:00:00]

Yoela Palkin: If you don't feel the pain point, you can't develop the pain point ?


once you begin to pattern recognize from outside the system, you begin to see inefficiencies that insiders are close to notice.


Rob D. Willis: Welcome to superpowered with me, Rob d Willis. Each week I talk to people who have mastered their skills in the most demanding situations. They share what actually works, so you don't have to learn everything the hard way.

For anyone who's new here, please make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. We have amazing guests every week, and today is no different. I am talking to Ella Kin about turning outside thinking. Into startup success. Yella has a true entrepreneurial mindset, something which I think we should all try and develop.

She has this gift for seeing opportunities that others missed. She launched 30 iOS apps during the app store's early days, and built five companies with three successful exits. [00:01:00] Her contrarian approach has led to remarkable results scaling MEA to $6 million with just 14 people and growing basket to $2 million a RR.

In just 18 months now, as the founder of 77 Labs, she's challenging traditional VC wisdom by investing in and operating companies that solve unsexy but critical problems. So many different things to unpack here, and I cannot wait to dive in. So, Ella, welcome to the show. So

Yoela Palkin: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Rob D. Willis: For people who don't know you, don't follow you on Twitter. Could you just give a quick intro to what you do and how you help people?

Yoela Palkin: Yeah. So uh, these days I am focused on growing our funds, 77 labs, and essentially we are. In part investing and incubating as well as relaunching different startups that, you know, did not basically make it the first time around. And this is like a very [00:02:00] specific you know, thesis to kind of the Silicon Valley typical you know, idea that you hear about, because. Essentially everybody thinks that they're going to be successful and launch from the first time, and it's going to be fireworks. What I have seen is that there's so much more opportunity in helping founders who have not found product market fit, who are, you know, kind of stuck from a financing standpoint. They sometimes have the right idea, but not enough time and not enough money, and so. We come in and we try to understand what the asset is. Sometimes the asset is the team. Sometimes the asset is the brand or the reputation that they've developed. Other times it's obviously the product. And once we find the asset, we try our best to remold it, you know, repackage it, and therefore.

With all that, relaunching it. And as part of the relaunch, we, we really look at can this product [00:03:00] survive in the same industry? Is the business model right. You know, can we continue to grow with, with these, with the founding team, or do we need a. You know, make some changes. And the ultimate goal is to basically build a resilient company.

It's not to continue raising venture capital, but you know, to actually enable the company to cash flow within 18 months to three years is usually kind of our timeline. And with that comes different challenges that obviously, you know, are not typical for most VCs. And that's the reason why we like to put ourselves in the bucket of more, kind of like a micro private equity play, but with more product and software at the focus of it versus just, you know, accounting, financial models and changing management.

Rob D. Willis: It's kind of the opposite to a lot of VC work, which is essentially. Hype [00:04:00] train, and it kind of goes against the sense, the common sense of investment, which is you try and invest in undervalued assets

Yoela Palkin: exactly.

Rob D. Willis: expectation that it will go up in value. So you are already showing with that.

An amazing perspective, which gives an idea of this outsider thinking. And that's really what I wanted to focus on for the first part of this discussion, how you find those opportunities that others miss. Now, I'm sure that this just comes naturally to some people. Maybe it always came naturally to you, but would you say that there are maybe some fundamental principles or a process that someone should go to in order to find those sorts of opportunities?

Yoela Palkin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I run a newsletter called Antis, status Quo, and I spend a lot of time trying to figure

Rob D. Willis: Out.

Yoela Palkin: to enable a framework that is not just having people be contrarians for the sake of it, but [00:05:00] actually building a framework or a model. Where people are comfortable and have kind of like a knack for seeing past conventional wisdom and actually making certain blind spots their opportunity.

And so I've always broken it down as. core principles. The first is obviously pattern recognition. Just like algorithms, you know, we are trained to subscribe to. Common think or group think. And once you begin to pattern recognize from outside the system, you begin to see inefficiencies that insiders are close to notice.

So something very simple like this is right

Rob D. Willis: Right now.

Yoela Palkin: is very, very excited about AI and AI agents and thinks that, you know, AI agents are going to take over the [00:06:00] world. I believe that, you know, the most interesting opportunity is what infrastructure or what systems are actually going to power those AI agents instead of essentially building an AI agent, right? So you always kind of have to pattern match with what is the fundamental inefficiency, whether it's fundamentally to scale. Or frankly something that is so, so small that can turn into a business on its own just because everyone will depend on it in order to essentially enable a specific new product or specific new service.

And so that's the kind of the first that I always go into, pattern recognized from outside the system. Number two is. Just being really, really, really resourceful. I think that we as humans tend to leverage resources and delegate out too [00:07:00] quickly, as well as try to get other smart people to do things for us, which frankly, you know, at this point in my life, I'm, I have the opposite problem, which is basically.

I now have to figure out how to leverage my time and my team's time more than everyone being resourceful for themselves, right? But essentially, when you are starting out you know, as an outsider, someone that really wants to find opportunity, resourcefulness over resources is, is really vital. That means trying to do as much yourself.

Learn as much as you can yourself. Do exercises with yourself when it comes to understanding priorities, understanding you know, how to find kind of tactical items that you can learn, that you can, the skills that you can grow in order to then tackle on resources when you have the opportunity and the funding.

And then the third. [00:08:00] Is just to be a healthy skeptic. I, I always, I always laugh because this principle is kind of like, you know, an older, an older kind of like. European man philosophy, but in, you know, or maybe specific Eastern European man mentality that was, you know, grilled into my brain for so many years. But it's really, you know, to be a skeptic against the dogma, whether that's, you know, what's happening in government, what's happening in the industry to always. Try to find, not be a pessimist, but try to find the points where there can be healthy skepticism that essentially can empower you to you know, find specific opportunities and ask why is it this way?

Or how do we optimize it? why has it been like this for a certain amount of time? And so I guess that comes with kind of the immigrant edge, [00:09:00] but. I, I find, I find that to be true.

Rob D. Willis: Well, I mean, as an immigrant man pushing 40, I

Yoela Palkin: Yeah.

Rob D. Willis: perhaps, I'm, I'm in that bucket already. But anyway, I love those those three pillars, pattern recognition, resourcefulness, and healthy skeptic. And I also love that you already went ahead and mentioned AI because everyone talks about it all the time as if it's the answer to everything.

But let's go back in time a little bit because I'd love to think about this outsider perspective in the context of a company that you. Started and grew MEA applications. Now, I read in your blog that you realized that developers were kind of getting sidelined in the process.

Could you tell us a little bit about what you were doing at that time, how you came to that realization, and maybe the kind of point where you ha that eureka moment when [00:10:00] you realize this is something that I can do for this group of people.

Yoela Palkin: Yeah,

Rob D. Willis: Yeah, so

Yoela Palkin: it really again, starts with having a bottleneck yourself. You know, there's, there's a deep belief that I hold, which is. If you don't feel the pain point, you can't develop the pain point, right? A lot of the time companies are built because they assume an industry is going through a problem or they assume something is ineffective or inefficient. But

Rob D. Willis: I experienced this.

Yoela Palkin: the best companies that I have started, that I've built, that I continue to invest in are ones that I deeply understand just either through my own kind of burst. Personal experiences or through business. And so MEA really started you know, as a bunch of college kids trying to make money by pushing apps onto the newly released app store. You know, I was at the right time at the right place. Essentially, you know, the iPhone had just launched you [00:11:00] know, in 2007. And you know, I was basically in college in 2008 and I was meeting people that were all, you know, very close because I went to to Berkeley. And so we're very close to, you know, various companies in Silicon Valley, whether it be Google, apple, Netflix, et cetera.

And so I

Rob D. Willis: I just had.

Yoela Palkin: That was already working on developing you could say the newly formed app store and actually on the SDK side. So an SDK is a software development toolkit that enables essentially developers like me to, you know, license a package, if you will, and essentially use that package in order to build applications.

And so. We basically saw that advertisement was the only form of monetization, and I kept on needing to ins I needed to insert these advertisements and these kind of frames of ads that did not [00:12:00] integrate with our UX at all, and frankly blocked a lot of gameplay. In, in our, in our mini apps. And so that's when, you know, we basically turned the model of developing applications into more kind of like a dev shop where we would now build applications for Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000 companies. And then we saw the same problem at scale, which is now

Rob D. Willis: reach,

Yoela Palkin: like Toys Russ and Staples, and travel.

You know,

Rob D. Willis: travel, or

Yoela Palkin: Expedia were essentially paying lots and lots of money to advertisers, but like, they couldn't get the dimensions in the application and the UX to integrate properly with the ads. And so that's where we basically said, okay, instead of being on the side of the

Rob D. Willis: advertise.

Yoela Palkin: everybody's always on the side of the individuals that are you know, making you money.

Essentially we decided to be on the side of the developers and that's essentially how we built you know, a company that was [00:13:00] analytics first for developers that allowed people like us to negotiate and to actually create small little modules and small little widgets based on data, based on QA that we were automating through that experience.

And so. Essentially this was the very, very first time that you couldn't actually just see click data, but you could actually optimize the way an ad appeared in your application as well as allowed you to see how that ad was interfering with the placement within your app and be able to change it in real time.

Rob D. Willis: That's quite an amazing insight. I'm wondering, is this the kind of thing you sit down and think through with a pen and paper, or is this something that just comes to you when you are frustrated and you think, oh, I just wish it was like this, and then you roll with the idea. How deliberate is the process of finding a idea like that?

Yoela Palkin: You know, it never really starts with an idea. It's for me. And it's, it's [00:14:00] funny I. To admit this, but it always starts with a frustration. Like, I, like my, my most successful businesses have transitioned into really interesting moats because I've been so frustrated with a very specific problem. I, I love aesthetics.

I think that applications and software should work very well, but also look. Pretty I basically am not a designer. I still, you know, draw stick figures and I get laughed at when I try to, you know, draw mockups on a, on a whiteboard. But I do think that function as well as aesthetic is very, very important to any experience, whether that's building a physical product or a mobile application, or a software as a service you know web app. And so. Part of me gets

Gets Frustrat.

those two worlds don't combine. So I

I always say that, you know.

[00:15:00] spent a little bit of time in Germany as well, and obviously in Japan, and I always say that like, you know, there's certain cultures that are function over form and then there's other kind.

Cultures that are form over function, right? And so I really try to partner the best of both worlds as best as I can. And that usually is a huge bucket of aggravation for me. And I have that with simple things, right? And I also I. You know, tend to do an exercise with myself of like, why this aggravates me or how I would make it better.

And then I talk to, I try to pick and choose individuals that would be also having a similar problem, but maybe at like an nth scale. So like in, in the MEA example, I was seeing that as just like a small time app developer, but you know, some A CMO at ToysRUs at the time, or like a CMO at Expedia was seeing the same problem like. 10 x right, or 20 x. And [00:16:00] so when I see that, you know, my micro problem is actually a macro problem as well, that's what allows me to kind of get that sense of, oh wow, this is an opportunity and let's boil down exactly how this is going to work.

Rob D. Willis: And was that through essentially guesswork or were you talking to those CMOs at.

Yoela Palkin: That's the other thing. I I have this tendency where I don't trust myself. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm working on this and I, and I, I've gotten better over the years, but I

I don't

myself until, unless that same problem is confirmed in the same way that I feel the pain point at least three times. I. Right.


The reason why I say at least three times is I think that there is incredible bias. When you talk to your friends and you talk to people that you know, and people that love you and support you, there's a very different bias when you are trying to pitch to a strategic customer. And so I always.

Even, even without [00:17:00] knowing what it was called, like nowadays, I, I always tell founders that the most important thing that you can make as a decision is forming your customer advisory board or your, you know, kind of strategic client's list. And the reason why I think that's vital is because. Those are the people that are going to be consistently challenging your bias and telling you the extent of the problem that you are actually describing In dollar signs.

If there are no dollar signs, it's not a pain

not a pain

It's, it's almost like a nice to have. And so I tend to

I to

pill versus vitamin

government issue.

and that's the reason why. I don't trust myself until there are dollar signs and until there is a pain point that someone can pay for to resolve. Right?

Rob D. Willis: Yeah, so you've gotta see a problem, feel the frustration, and then you have to validate it in at least three places.

Yoela Palkin: Yep.

Rob D. Willis: And I'd like to just stick with that because we, whether you are an entrepreneur [00:18:00] or whether you work in a company, that validation process I think is important when you are, when you're going after something, which is not the established route. You've got a pretty good idea of what the problem is, how you're gonna solve it with MAA applications. Do you feel that you nailed it a hundred percent the first time you released it, or was there a refining process? What did you have to change after it was out there in the world?

Yoela Palkin: Yeah, it

Rob D. Willis: Yeah.

Yoela Palkin: was definitely, you know a long, iterative process. And I think actually I'm seeing very similar parallels to AI now. As I saw

Saw in the early.

of mobile, things were changing so quickly. As decays, were changing APIs, were changing you know, various infrastructure couldn't scale based on how it was built, you know, the first time around.

So we were always like catching up. We were always pushing into production. Things that were not as well tested and we didn't [00:19:00] have the resources to fully test completely, right? And so we were consistently pushing what I refer to as like half-baked ideas, half-baked features in order to just be first to market and to be able to build momentum.

Around what we were doing. And so it's almost like a company that right now is trying to automate various processes and, and various you know, test different AI agents and tools. You know, every single couple of weeks there is a new update to documentation and the way that, you know. Open AI decides to process requests as an example.

You know, you have, you know, 4.0 or 4.0 mini, et cetera, et cetera. Right? And so it's, it's the same problem. Like we went through fixing and breaking, breaking and fixing for almost 18 months almost. Yeah, it was almost like a year and a half. I'm gonna say closer to two years. Before we reached a stable position for us to be able to just [00:20:00] like redeploy, we redeploy, rewrite things that were broken, and actually get to a point where the solutions that we were building were again, modular, they were modules that could be then repurposed as opposed to needing to consistently create custom custom different solutions for different clients. So that's like also very important in the beginning, you're just shipping, you're shipping to ship, and then it gets to a point where you have momentum and you actually have solutions that you know are replicatable. So.

Rob D. Willis: That's really cool. I'd love now just to talk a little bit about your own personal history and maybe how that has impacted what we've been talking about up till now. So you shared with me. When we were preparing for the episode, this amazing tweet when you're talking about your family history arriving in the US with less than $500 to their name, I'd love it if you could give us the brief story of the Polk and Clan arriving in [00:21:00] the US and talk about how that specifically has impacted this sort of outsider thinking perspective that you have today.

Yoela Palkin: Yeah, I I really think that I'm a product of my environment and I'm obviously, you know, grateful

Grateful

parents and, and to my community for that. And yeah, I

yeah, I mean.

times times were really rough. I mean, we, we basically, you know, grew up very, very poor. My, my family came to America with, you know. I think it was like a little bit less than $500. And and, you know, they, they were, they're the type

Type of people.

the grit to do anything to survive. And that

Is that really

at all ages. I mean, my parents are like that. My grandparents are like

like,

actually, you know, on both sides, I would say. And what's fascinating is that. They also, you know, for being Eastern European Jews, they

Actually

[00:22:00] no ego. They did

have everything.

So, you know, like my grandmother basically, you know, is a PhD and she couldn't, you know, at the age of 50. Six when she came to the US really like recertify her degree to actually go work as an economist and actually like work as a, you know, a mathematics professor.

And so she basically went and started cleaning bathrooms and, you know, working retail like at Ross, you know, and at Marshalls. My dad was the same thing, you know, as a refrigeration. And he would, you know, just, just do jobs just to have, you know, a family survive. And so I think that kind of mentality of like do anything to survive is really, really ingrained in me. And you know, they basically. Almost treated, you know, our family as like a

Startup.

right? From a very young age every, every child was like, hands on deck. And I still believe that that is the best [00:23:00] way to raise a family. I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine a few weeks ago where he said, wow, like both of our parents made us work, you know, from the age of like 10, 11, whether it was like. Your dad's business or like, you know, just trying to hustle to help the family pay rent. Would you do that with your own children? You know, that was the question and I said, you know, to be honest with you, I think it gives you this kind of. of life and it makes you form, you know, new skills that you would never see in school.

Yes, things are rough. You don't have vacation stories to tell, you don't, you know, you don't have like the latest gadget, the latest toy. Sometimes, you know, you feel cornered, your self-esteem may drop, you know, as, as a kid, but it really. Allows you to work towards something greater, right? So, so my dad, you know, is a you know. Very, very fascinating character. He's, you know, built [00:24:00] basically multiple businesses. He's basically, you know, built and filed for bankruptcy, built and failed like more than seven times. and we were essentially, you know, the result of that where we had, you know, we made the American dream, the American dream happen, and then the banks were taking everything away.

We basically, you know, finally had money again. And then, you know, something happened and we had to sell everything. So we went through cycles of that through my childhood. And you know, I basically was in middle school and high school when I started kind of end of middle school, early high school when I started getting into, you know, programming and my dad, again, being the resourceful person that he is, I.

Wouldn't pay somebody to build a website or to, you know, do what he needed to market himself. He would have a child, right? So he would, you know, come to the family. He's like, oh, we don't [00:25:00] have $40,000 to pay for this website. I don't even know why I need a website. Like, everybody should come to me. You know, because I'm so amazing at what I do. And I was like, Hmm, that seems like a lot of money. Let me just go figure out how to do that. Right.

my dad would never pay me. He would say that, you know, I have a roof over my head and you know, I have my health and I have a warm bed to sleep on for now at least. And and

That

enough,

enough. You know

my, my

and my, my parents, you know, went through

you know, a catering business, a food manufacturing business, a

business. Whole

All in, all in kind of the food and hospitality space. And so it was rough. Like, you know, I would be, I would

would be

Weddings and, and various cater catered events and also, you know, in the factory, in the manufacturing facility just because like, we didn't have enough employees.

So that I think

I think really?

helped me, helped me form a specific type of identity.

Rob D. Willis: Is there a a vivid [00:26:00] memory? It could be something they used to tell you, or a particular event which sticks with you, which you think about a lot as you're doing your work with 77 labs today?

Yoela Palkin: Yeah, so like I, I really think that cash flow is king, right? So my parents, you know, never really had the ability to raise money from external investors until very late in the gate. So my dad was only able to bring in external financing what I refer to as like, not, not debt, but actually external investors investing in the business, you know, kind of at the later stage of his last company.

And

That actually taught me that you can do a lot with cash flow, right? If you're able to leverage different assets and if you're able to really, you know, build a cashflow business that actually keeps expenses low and profit margins high, it it in any way, you will make it right.

So [00:27:00] within the 77 Labs umbrella. We always look for businesses and companies that actually can turn one thing on, or essentially enable a single process or a single feature that will, even with a small number of clients, be able to help the company break even in a very short period of time. Because we know that if we are able to break even, even if we're, you know, not doing anything revolutionary. We will be able to then cash flow, you know, within six to 10 months, to 12 months, to 18 months. And so for me, that is vital and I would rather, you

You know,

work on cutting, automating, as well as building the right systems to generate cash flow versus just building to build. So I think that's, that's ingrained in me as well.

Rob D. Willis: Cassius King, love it.

Yoela Palkin: King.

Rob D. Willis: If you were to write a business book about this journey [00:28:00] to where you are now, what do you think you'd call it?

Yoela Palkin: You know, I thought about this a little bit and I, I genuinely think that it's, I'm kind of like an outsider now in an insider world, and so I. A title that I would probably choose is like the Outside's Playbook, how to always look out in order to look in.

Rob D. Willis: Awesome. Love it. Let's move on to some rapid fire. So just quick answers, little tips. Have you got a favorite book about outside of thinking?

Yoela Palkin: Yeah, so I, I think that recently I actually fell in love with a new, a new type of individual instead of just, you know, someone that's built startups you know, his name is Brad Jacobs. And essentially he wrote the book, how to Make a Few Billion Dollars. And this is an individual that. I'm not [00:29:00] gonna say has outsider thinking, but he questions everything.

And to me that is part of, you know, the success of understanding where opportunities lie that others miss. Right. And so Brad is the type of person and I've. Been reading about him. I'm now, you know, reading his book. He's someone that really tries to understand the fundamentals of any problem of any industry.

He even, you know, pays consultants. He pays experts to teach him everything he can know about a specific vertical. Before he can form questions and then form problem statements that then form solutions, and that's how he's built, you know, multiple billion dollar businesses. And that continues to be a skill that I want to excel in how to go so, so deep.

Have

Have

like squad

like

to go into any industry, to go into any kind [00:30:00] of like vertical. Learn everything. Find something that just doesn't make sense, doesn't stick

x.

form questions, and then take it to, you know, conferences or various, like, trade shows and just be the dumbest person in the room, you know?

And so that is, that is something that I'm really trying to even get better at. And he's someone that I'm really inspired by these days.

Rob D. Willis: Cool. Have you got a podcast you've discovered recently that you're enjoying?

Yoela Palkin: I really love the Founders podcast. It's, it's definitely not new, but I've I've recently you know, kind of gotten back into podcasting and I love founders because I. David does like an incredible job just breaking down the persona and he really makes you understand the individual behind a book or like behind a, you know, some kind of let's say an essay or, or an idea.

I, I almost treat it kind of like a history [00:31:00] podcast because you're trying to understand where this individual came from or like how, what formed who they are today in order to understand how they're making decisions. So it's almost like a business evolutionary exercise.

Every single or business persona, evolution, exercise, every single time I listen to an episode and I've really been enjoying that. And then my other one that I've recently gotten back to that I really, really enjoy is invest like the best.

That's a, that's a great, great show just generally.

Rob D. Willis: Next question. I've been really looking forward to asking you most overrated startup advice.

Yoela Palkin: Most overrated startup advice is basically raise as much as possible before product market fit.

Rob D. Willis: I thought cash was king.

Yoela Palkin: Yeah.

Rob D. Willis: Joke. Makes total sense. Total sense. Now let's move on to our last part of the show, which is the listener challenge. And in this part of the the pod, we give listeners a [00:32:00] ritual or an exercise, something that they can try out in the next week to get a bit of your superpower. Yoa, what have you got for us?

Yoela Palkin: So I

Rob D. Willis: I.

Yoela Palkin: do this one myself. I really call it, you know, the challenge, everything exercise and it's really a day that you dedicate to essentially writing down everything that you're focused on, all the priorities, and be able to ask yourself the question of. If I were not to do this, or if this were not to work, what would I be doing?

And it allows you to actually become the contrarian, become the outsider, question your priorities, and enable you to essentially figure out if what you're focusing on. Is actually right

Actually, right.

lead you to success. And I

I suggest.

almost like as a quarterly check-in with yourself. And it's to the point it, I really think that it [00:33:00] has to do with deeply holding assumptions that you. Should not believe in yourself and and what you're doing. And actually question if the opposite were true, would this still make sense? And I know that sounds a little bit harsh, but it's very, very important to actually almost go against what you're doing instead of. For anything that you have prioritized in order to get to the kind of final answers.

And then with that, you essentially have a bucket of ideas that work and that you should continue and a bucket of ideas or projects or tasks that you should probably kill. And that is, that is the best outcome of that exercise.

Rob D. Willis: That's awesome. Have you got any particular things you'd feel comfortable sharing, which you've decided to stop doing?

Yoela Palkin: Yeah. So I have basically like repositioned my last couple of months with my responsibilities at 77 Labs even. So [00:34:00] I. I basically have stopped you know, be I've stopped operating inside of specific companies. I was taking on roles and responsibilities that frankly were not suited for me, that I was just doing and that couldn't scale.

So, for example, I was. trying to be you know, a chief

Chief.

officer as well as a Chief Technical officer for a couple of our companies where I felt that, you know, those roles weren't filled properly. Or I

I could.

any way, you know, help the the individual that was in those roles. And so I've basically stopped doing most tactical things now for our companies, and I'm now. Repositioning myself to understand what is the exit plan for our fund and what are the exit plans for our current list of portfolio companies. And with all that, I basically realized that we needed to build a few more systems, a few more [00:35:00] processes, so I could completely take myself out of certain day-to-day activities.

And so that has become my to-do list, and I've basically killed anything that is operationally heavy. And unnecessary meetings and things that like I don't check email much anymore. Things that really are going to distract me from understanding the outcome within the next three to five years for, for the fund versus every single portfolio company and their tactical needs and daily operational requirements.

Rob D. Willis: Ah, sounds like a, a very worthwhile step to have taken. For sure. Ella, where can people go find out more about you?

Yoela Palkin: So you could

Rob D. Willis: Follow.

Yoela Palkin: me on Twitter at Yoa Kin. I also write a newsletter called Antis Status Quo. You could visit our website, 77 labs.com. And I have a personal site now, yoa kin.com. So happy to continue the conversation. Always.

Rob D. Willis: Awesome. We'll be [00:36:00] sure to link to all of that in the show notes. I've enjoyed this conversation so much. Ela, thank you for coming on.

Yoela Palkin: Thank you so much for having me again, and really enjoyed it as well. [00:37:00]